Comments on: Soap Making with Potassium Hydroxide, Part 1, The Process http://toolmakingart.com/2009/04/03/soap-making-with-potassium-hydroxide-part-1-the-process/ Timeless Tools Mon, 24 May 2010 20:49:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Skip J. http://toolmakingart.com/2009/04/03/soap-making-with-potassium-hydroxide-part-1-the-process/comment-page-1/#comment-476 Skip J. Sat, 02 May 2009 00:17:46 +0000 http://toolmakingart.com/?p=1137#comment-476 Thanks! I needed that! Bob said: "The real downside possible for this and any other pesticide, is that it could also damage a predatory insect. Lady bugs and praying mantis for example live on other bugs, so they are really nice to keep safe and free of poisons. A safe soap has the advantage of being easily removed, and target applied and does not pass toxins up the food chain. Often people add extra toxins to their soap for a bit more kick, but I don’t want to hurt the bees and the lady bugs.Bob" I encourage lady bugs and mantis in my low-toxic yard, and am happy when I get a hatch of little mantis'es... soooo I could apply the mix on the one tree with bugs, inspecting to make sure no good bugs are already on the job first. Then let'em die and come back and spray the tree with water to wash'em off and it won't hurt the tree.... great! Sounds like magic to me..... Skip Thanks! I needed that!

Bob said: “The real downside possible for this and any other pesticide, is that it could also damage a predatory insect. Lady bugs and praying mantis for example live on other bugs, so they are really nice to keep safe and free of poisons. A safe soap has the advantage of being easily removed, and target applied and does not pass toxins up the food chain. Often people add extra toxins to their soap for a bit more kick, but I don’t want to hurt the bees and the lady bugs.Bob”

I encourage lady bugs and mantis in my low-toxic yard, and am happy when I get a hatch of little mantis’es… soooo I could apply the mix on the one tree with bugs, inspecting to make sure no good bugs are already on the job first. Then let’em die and come back and spray the tree with water to wash’em off and it won’t hurt the tree…. great! Sounds like magic to me…..

Skip

]]> By: BobStrawn http://toolmakingart.com/2009/04/03/soap-making-with-potassium-hydroxide-part-1-the-process/comment-page-1/#comment-478 BobStrawn Fri, 01 May 2009 21:14:40 +0000 http://toolmakingart.com/?p=1137#comment-478 I have however sprinkled crushed lime on plants before and had them benefit from it. So some strong alkali can be OK in the right circumstances. In this case however the soap mix is indeed slightly acidic, so there is no issue there. Neat thing soap. When I made this soap, I made a lipid out of a strong alkali and an oil. The oil is a fatty acid, so it reacts and combines with the alkali. The result is a fairly neutral molecule that will bond on one side with water and the other side with oil. this molecule is a lipid and a salt. When I put it more oil than it needs, I am avoiding having raw lie remaining in the mix. The result is that the mix has a bit of extra oil so it has a slightly acidic PH balance. This makes is much safer. The lipids that we call soap will attach to oils and partially to completely encapsulate them. This is why soap cuts grease. The typical microbe has cell walls made of a double layer of lipids. Soap tends to destroy these cell walls, which is why soap is so good at preventing disease. So in two ways soap is a really good cleaner. The extra oil in the soap wastes a certain amount of the soaps strength as a cleaner, but it makes it safer and more pleasant for us to deal with. As a pesticide, the soap and oil are a good combination and will clog breathing tubes and damage cell walls. The soap lipid in this case being a salt, will typically draw moisture from the critter and then the air will take it from the soap. This can dehydrate and further damage the bug. Bugs have a much higher surface area to internal mass than we do. The cell damage caused by having soap left on us might cause a rash. Soap left on a bug is much harsher. It is always wise to test a plant to be sure it is not sensitive, but a lot of plants will not only do fine with a spraying, but will actually take nutrients from it. The real downside possible for this and any other pesticide, is that it could also damage a predatory insect. Lady bugs and praying mantis for example live on other bugs, so they are really nice to keep safe and free of poisons. A safe soap has the advantage of being easily removed, and target applied and does not pass toxins up the food chain. Often people add extra toxins to their soap for a bit more kick, but I don't want to hurt the bees and the lady bugs. Bob I have however sprinkled crushed lime on plants before and had them benefit from it. So some strong alkali can be OK in the right circumstances. In this case however the soap mix is indeed slightly acidic, so there is no issue there.

Neat thing soap. When I made this soap, I made a lipid out of a strong alkali and an oil. The oil is a fatty acid, so it reacts and combines with the alkali. The result is a fairly neutral molecule that will bond on one side with water and the other side with oil. this molecule is a lipid and a salt. When I put it more oil than it needs, I am avoiding having raw lie remaining in the mix. The result is that the mix has a bit of extra oil so it has a slightly acidic PH balance. This makes is much safer.

The lipids that we call soap will attach to oils and partially to completely encapsulate them. This is why soap cuts grease. The typical microbe has cell walls made of a double layer of lipids. Soap tends to destroy these cell walls, which is why soap is so good at preventing disease. So in two ways soap is a really good cleaner.

The extra oil in the soap wastes a certain amount of the soaps strength as a cleaner, but it makes it safer and more pleasant for us to deal with. As a pesticide, the soap and oil are a good combination and will clog breathing tubes and damage cell walls.
The soap lipid in this case being a salt, will typically draw moisture from the critter and then the air will take it from the soap. This can dehydrate and further damage the bug.

Bugs have a much higher surface area to internal mass than we do. The cell damage caused by having soap left on us might cause a rash. Soap left on a bug is much harsher.

It is always wise to test a plant to be sure it is not sensitive, but a lot of plants will not only do fine with a spraying, but will actually take nutrients from it.

The real downside possible for this and any other pesticide, is that it could also damage a predatory insect. Lady bugs and praying mantis for example live on other bugs, so they are really nice to keep safe and free of poisons. A safe soap has the advantage of being easily removed, and target applied and does not pass toxins up the food chain. Often people add extra toxins to their soap for a bit more kick, but I don’t want to hurt the bees and the lady bugs.

Bob

]]> By: Skip J. http://toolmakingart.com/2009/04/03/soap-making-with-potassium-hydroxide-part-1-the-process/comment-page-1/#comment-477 Skip J. Fri, 01 May 2009 18:35:15 +0000 http://toolmakingart.com/?p=1137#comment-477 Well Bob; it has been a month and I have had time to think about your article. Actually, this particular article. You have introduced a number of soap-specific terms such as saponify and super-fatted that you have explained well. Still, the likelihood someone will follow through and learn your process - and various forms of the soap recipe - are somewhat slim. It would be interesting to read your future articles on the details though! But I am ready to hear a few words on preparing the mix to apply, application methods, and the end-product mix's horticultural benefits if you can..... My own interest is for low-toxic pest control on bonsai potted trees; but, trees like acid, not alkali..... I am usually applying an acidifier to neutral soils for them. Skip Well Bob; it has been a month and I have had time to think about your article. Actually, this particular article.

You have introduced a number of soap-specific terms such as saponify and super-fatted that you have explained well. Still, the likelihood someone will follow through and learn your process – and various forms of the soap recipe – are somewhat slim. It would be interesting to read your future articles on the details though!

But I am ready to hear a few words on preparing the mix to apply, application methods, and the end-product mix’s horticultural benefits if you can….. My own interest is for low-toxic pest control on bonsai potted trees; but, trees like acid, not alkali….. I am usually applying an acidifier to neutral soils for them.

Skip

]]> By: Skip J. http://toolmakingart.com/2009/04/03/soap-making-with-potassium-hydroxide-part-1-the-process/comment-page-1/#comment-481 Skip J. Fri, 03 Apr 2009 22:45:41 +0000 http://toolmakingart.com/?p=1137#comment-481 Ahhh yes, well... I'm not going to put in the research effort to figure out the diamonds either; even tho it is something I could do. Any kind of Chemistry is wayyy out of my league. I will experiment with the wax mix as you taught me to. However, while most of the plants I raise are tough enough; some are very tender indeed when they are young shoots. So I have a definite need for a delicate but effective solution for the appropriate bugs. I do wish you well with your venture! Skip Ahhh yes, well… I’m not going to put in the research effort to figure out the diamonds either; even tho it is something I could do. Any kind of Chemistry is wayyy out of my league. I will experiment with the wax mix as you taught me to.

However, while most of the plants I raise are tough enough; some are very tender indeed when they are young shoots. So I have a definite need for a delicate but effective solution for the appropriate bugs.

I do wish you well with your venture!

Skip

]]> By: BobStrawn http://toolmakingart.com/2009/04/03/soap-making-with-potassium-hydroxide-part-1-the-process/comment-page-1/#comment-480 BobStrawn Fri, 03 Apr 2009 22:09:59 +0000 http://toolmakingart.com/?p=1137#comment-480 Yes, making and using soap in the garden are too complex an issue for a single post. As far as tasting a soap, I would rather injure myself than cause indiscriminate injury to another. I think garden soap will be the first thing I put up for sale on this website. Because of the nature of soap making, I am not sure everyone has the right environment to make it themselves. I still want to encourage the practice and spread the knowledge however. Bob Yes, making and using soap in the garden are too complex an issue for a single post. As far as tasting a soap, I would rather injure myself than cause indiscriminate injury to another.

I think garden soap will be the first thing I put up for sale on this website. Because of the nature of soap making, I am not sure everyone has the right environment to make it themselves. I still want to encourage the practice and spread the knowledge however.

Bob

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